SA Developer .NET

Welcome to SA Developer .NET Sign in | Join | Help
in Search

visual sourcesafe 2005

Last post 10-03-2008, 17:41 by benhart. 11 replies.
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  •  10-03-2008, 9:10 15019

    visual sourcesafe 2005

    Hi guys

    Stupid question I'm sure but if you are not getting VSS2005 with your MSDN subscription how much does it retail for and where can I buy it?


    Life is a cookie.
  •  10-03-2008, 10:18 15020 in reply to 15019

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    Hi Dude,

    Why don't you get SourceSafe with your MSDN subscription? It seems kinda strange. I think your best bet would be to phone Microsoft and find out where you can buy it/get it.

    Also, if you guys can, look into Team Foundation Server rather than SourceSafe. MUCH better than SourceSafe in terms of stability and usage (little trickier to set up though, but there are good guides on the Internet)


    The Question is the Answer, and the Answer is the Question!
  •  10-03-2008, 12:03 15043 in reply to 15019

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    Potentpoefie:

    Hi guys

    Stupid question I'm sure but if you are not getting VSS2005 with your MSDN subscription how much does it retail for and where can I buy it?

    Why do you want it anyway?  svn with Ankh integration into VS has matured quite nicely.  I only ever use Tortoise, the Windows Explorer svn client, to commit non-solution files.


    Unscrambling Eggs: Decompiling ASP.NET
  •  10-03-2008, 12:56 15051 in reply to 15043

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    Yeah. Anything is better than SourceSafe. Anything. I wouldn't use it it I was paid to. MS never dreamt of using it, at least they're dogfooding TFS (which is ok, but not worth the price if you're paying).

    See here for details.

    SVN is great. All the cool kids are using mercurial and Git these days, but I haven't needed anything that svn doesn't offer.


    The high road might seem longer at first, but you'll enjoy the downhill at the end...

    http://blog.benhartonline.com/
  •  10-03-2008, 13:16 15052 in reply to 15051

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    benhart:

    which is ok, but not worth the price if you're paying

    Sorry, have to say whatever TFS costs is worth it... where else can you get:

    1. Workspaces - work on same project on different locations on your hard drive

    2. Shelvesets - can't check something in yet? Shelve it and get it later, therefore you can resort back to the latest version of the code for quick fixes while working on longer projects...

    3. Auto merge - works like a bomb!

    4. Unit testing and code coverage (my word, it tells you exactly how much of your code your unit tests cover, meaning you can cater for every single possible scenario)

    5. Pre check in events (make sure a developer has done something before they're allowed to check in, like run all the unit tests to make sure everything still works!)

    6. Post check in events (like automatic build after a check in)

    7. Complete history of who did what when

    8. Create multiple builds, like DEV, QA and PROD... allows merging between the builds (per check in, so pick which changes to take from DEV to QA and so forth)... Seemless integration for go lives and always have your latest production code ready and easily changeable (for those post implementaion bug fixes)...

    I haven't covered everything, just the things I can remember off the top of my head... but I definitely think it's worth it, if we took one year and the amount of time I would have spend doing the above mentioned tasks without TFS, I personally think my output would be about 3/4 of what it is, and if you convert that in terms of salary, that's like getting 3 months of development time for free... which probably would cover the license cost for one developer...

     


    "I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code"
    Meeting Place - chat online with anyone, anytime, no downloads or plugins required
  •  10-03-2008, 13:34 15053 in reply to 15052

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    Heat_Rash:

    1. Workspaces - work on same project on different locations on your hard drive

    in svn i can check out a project to any directory, I can even just copy and paste an existing directory, and continue. voila. workspaces are one of the sucky things about TFS.

    Heat_Rash:

    2. Shelvesets - can't check something in yet? Shelve it and get it later, therefore you can resort back to the latest version of the code for quick fixes while working on longer projects...

    A shelveset is just a branch, don't let the fancy name fool you. branch it in svn.

     

    Heat_Rash:

    3. Auto merge - works like a bomb!

    svn merge is much better, win merge too. I've seen much, much more broken code from the merging in TFS than svn (I've used both extensively, TFS for around a year)

     

    Heat_Rash:

    4. Unit testing and code coverage (my word, it tells you exactly how much of your code your unit tests cover, meaning you can cater for every single possible scenario)

    NUnit/MbUnit/xUnit/Gallio if you want to jump around. Add NCover (or soon hopefully partcover), and you're away, better tools either for free or 1/100 of the cost.

     

    Heat_Rash:
     

    5. Pre check in events (make sure a developer has done something before they're allowed to check in, like run all the unit tests to make sure everything still works!)

    You've got me there. A pity though, that TFS makes it so simple for ANY developer to override the policy :)

     

    Heat_Rash:
      

    6. Post check in events (like automatic build after a check in)

    CruiseControl.NET, Cruise, TeamCity, Ci Factory. All better tools, either free or 1/100 of the cost.

     

    Heat_Rash:
       

    7. Complete history of who did what when

    that's what VCS's are.

     

    Heat_Rash:
        

    8. Create multiple builds, like DEV, QA and PROD... allows merging between the builds (per check in, so pick which changes to take from DEV to QA and so forth)... Seemless integration for go lives and always have your latest production code ready and easily changeable (for those post implementaion bug fixes)...

     

    MSBuild (or Nant), combined with the above CI tools. That's what TFS uses (MsBuild) under the hood, that's what you use with the CI tools above.

    I must point out that I really liked what TFS claimed to offer when first demo'd, and still will likely give it another chance. I've just used all the above tools and they work better in their respective departments that TFS. Best of breed versus jack of all trades.

    I know all the issue tracking etc. is there, but add Trac or JIRA with post-commit hooks into svn, and you're sorted.

    TFS sucks because:

    1. Merging and branching support is not great at all

    2. Still makes it too difficult to work offline (WTF!)

    3. Still even has the concept of checking out files (WTF!!!)

    4. The CI stuff was an afterthought.

    As much as I liked Brian Harry when he was at TechEd, I really think they should have looked to someone else to build TFS.

    But that's enough of my rant. This will likely degrade into a flame war, but the above should put my cards on the table.

     


    The high road might seem longer at first, but you'll enjoy the downhill at the end...

    http://blog.benhartonline.com/
  •  10-03-2008, 14:01 15056 in reply to 15052

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    Heat_Rash:

    I haven't covered everything, just the things I can remember off the top of my head... but I definitely think it's worth it, if we took one year and the amount of time I would have spend doing the above mentioned tasks without TFS, I personally think my output would be about 3/4 of what it is, and if you convert that in terms of salary, that's like getting 3 months of development time for free... which probably would cover the license cost for one developer...

    All what you are saying is true, but try to explain that to a wiseguy financial director or CEO that is more worried about finances and his/her next Mercedes Stick out tongue


    The Question is the Answer, and the Answer is the Question!
  •  10-03-2008, 15:21 15059 in reply to 15056

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    And here i was expecting one of two replies. which i got but unknow to me at the time i also opened a can of worms. :)
    Life is a cookie.
  •  10-03-2008, 16:30 15063 in reply to 15053

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    [Response removed]
    Supplying the masses with useless information since 1996

    The views, comments and opinions expressed in this post is that of the poster alone unless otherwise indicated

    Diago.co.za
  •  10-03-2008, 16:40 15064 in reply to 15063

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    Just as well...

    My point was a response to the comments regarding TFS, which warranted a response. Its integration is unique, its functions aren't.

    Like I say, I've used TFS and its competitors. Where is this bandwagon of writing it off? I'm not intentionally being obstinate, please read the thread and see that. Each tool needs to be evaluated on its merit, and I do just that.

    I have attended some sa architect events in the past, thanks for sharing the link. Should get back into attending...

    [Edit: sorry, having read my previous post, my choice of wording "TFS sucks because" was a little short. I see those as negatives of TFS, "sucks" is a shorthand, but perhaps loaded.]


    The high road might seem longer at first, but you'll enjoy the downhill at the end...

    http://blog.benhartonline.com/
  •  10-03-2008, 17:16 15065 in reply to 15064

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    IMHO TFS does, in fact, suck. And I don't agree with positioning CruiseControl, NAnt etc (and by implication other OSS tools) as something to be used by students until they are ready for the 'real world' either.

    But again, this is just my personal opinion.


    Driven Software
  •  10-03-2008, 17:41 15066 in reply to 15064

    Re: visual sourcesafe 2005

    Ok, take two. I feel bad now that my shooting TFS off might have created the wrong impression - all my responses to this thread have been rushed, and perhaps too emotional.

    To take a step back, I'll recount my experiences with TFS...

    I come from a very developed CI environment, cc.net, intergrated with a swath of tools and libraries. We use svn for vcs, nunit (mbunit at times), ncover, wix, fxcop, jira, ndepend, and various others that slip my mind. Anyone who's set up such an environment will know that it is not a trivial task, and takes much effort. Once running, it works well.

    I jumped at the idea of TFS, as I mentioned, the integration and ease is extremely compelling, and, if done well, is quite a silver bullet. I could have the same results of the above mentioned tools without the pain of intergration, and a common thread between them all. I want this, and I know that it could add significant value to any team. TFS is extremely expensive compared to the above, though. Partnerships and the like reduce this cost, but it still prices itself into a market that smaller shops often cannot afford.

    I was extremely happy to consult with a team that was already using TFS, so I could experience it first hand without the time and resources to set up to evaluate. I had seen the demos, and was excited as everyone else. The only suite that compares is the rational toolkit, and anyone who's used that knows that it's pretty painful.

    The project was large (members of my team are still on it, around 70+ VS projects, many, many LOC). In a financial environment, the quality of each build is paramount, and to ensure this we needed to make extensive use of branches and corresponding merging. Merging is not a trivial task, and takes quite some skill to do right. I know first hand from these merges that TFS was not best of breed. Some automerging was inexplicable, LOC disappeared, were overwritten and the like. This turned a task that could have taken hours into one that took days. We had to stop using branches in some cases because the merges were too risky.

    Lack of offline support was incredibly hindering (although we learnt later that there are powertools that helped, the fact that we needed to use them is still a concern). I has developers "checking out" the whole code base in the evenings so they could wrap up their work when they were home. The following working day having to manually track which items had been added was, simply, a nightmare, and also extremely risky.

    CI was missed, but not essential. We just had regularly scheduled builds. This was a pity, but we did ok. Again, there were ways around, and we found them.

     When we joined the team, the default "check out and lock" model was selected. Anyone who's had a team member leave a few crucial files checked out and locked for a weekend and needed them knows first hand how this hurts. (My comments regarding Brian Harry were directly related to this, I can only presume that this model is in TFS is due to his involvement, since most other VCS's don't consider it a necessity. Please remember, I respect and admire the guy, I just think we differ on a few key points regarding vcs.)

    These are significant issues against TFS as far as the way I've come to work go. Others might not find these a problem, so fair play.

    I think the real magic of TFS is in the Test edition. Having those web stress and functional tests is really awesome, and I haven't seen many other tools that get that right. Again, this was based on a demo I've seen, and I'll evaluate these in time, and they might be enough to sway me over.

    Having just seen the recent comment, I reiterate, I don't think TFS "sucks", it was a shorthand for some very signifant lacks, which mean that I can't use it (yet?). I have kept up with the roadmap, though, and will never discount it from future evaluations.

    Again, though, don't assume MS invented most of these, and that if you can't afford TFS you have to do without. There are other tools out there, which, if you're prepared to invest the effort, can do a better job than TFS in many cases.

     VSS does suck, and I will flame on on that Stick out tongue

    And finally, use what works for you. I'm hot-headed and opinionated, and I'm not going to apologise for being as such. If I shoot something off, consider that there is always an implicit "IMO", because that's all they are.

    Have a good weekend.


    The high road might seem longer at first, but you'll enjoy the downhill at the end...

    http://blog.benhartonline.com/
View as RSS news feed in XML
Powered by Community Server (Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems